Why have non-violent political protesters been hammered with harsher prison sentences than the violent extreme-right rioters who have been terrorising our communities?
This is a global war on the citizens of the country! The thing is this is a global operation. This is purposeful. no accident. A social engineering protocol.
The right-wing thugs provide a valuable service to capitalists and their servants in politics, just as similar groups provided a valuable service to the Nazis in the 1930s. It’s planned and approved by the wealthy and powerful. The Just Stop Oil protestors present a real threat to the nazification of the UK. Capitalists won’t stand for that.
Couldn't disagree more. In the interest of fairness and critical thinking, I'll explain.
1/ The guy who got 3 years pleaded guilty, so that's 1/3rd off. If he cooperated from the start during police interviews that's another 1/3rd off. So the sentence you're actually looking at here is 9 years, not 3. Which is twice what the JSO lot got. If the JSO lot had pleaded guilty and cooperated then reduce their sentences by 2/3rds. Suddenly doesn't look so bad now, does it? They'd also serve their sentences in a low-tier prison, possibly an open one, and get out after half the time. So we're now looking at an effective sentence of somewhere between 9-11 months.
2/ Planning to cause gridlock on the M25 with a rolling roadblock is absolutely not 'peaceful'!!! It's actually one degree away from a terrorist attack. Let's think of a few consequences. First, all those engines idling actually causes more pollution, which is somewhat ironic. Second, how about missed medical screening appointments which mean the difference between curable (e.g. cancer) and terminal? So that's (multiple) manslaughter at the very least. Third, there's all those (innocent) lorry drivers who will miss their delivery times and get their pay docked. Maybe some of them have families to feed and already live on the poverty line. What if they are delivering vital necessities - again, medicines, for example. Or there's an ambulance with a donor organ? And we haven't even started on the economic damage which would run into the billions and probably send a variety of small British businesses bankrupt. So that's more job losses and more poverty. Then there's the obvious road rage incidents.
3/ I very much doubt that 'Roger Hallam' will be serving any jail time at all, possibly on account of something called the 'covert human intelligence sources' act. The other four, maybe, I don't know. But JSO, funded as it is (like XR) by an American billionairess (Eileen Getty I believe), are an excellent honeypot, and oh look, they've just provided the perfect pretext for a fascist home secretary to increase the powers of the security state! Has anyone not heard of the concept of an agent provocateur? Who benefits?
4/ I'm not even going to get started on the whole neoliberal-instigated pseudoscience of 'global warming'. But even if you did want to believe it, and you wanted to protest, then you should be choosing your targets more intelligently and specifically. How about all the 'lobbyists' for a start? How about a massive poster campaign, if it's about raising awareness? Compare to, say, Palestine Action, who not only choose their targets (Elbit) but actually achieve something in the process. Furthermore, there's no need to 'raise awareness' because 'everyone' can't fail to be aware of the 'climate crisis' seeing as it's shoved down everyone's throats incessantly by mainstream media propaganda.
5/ I would likewise imagine all these current riots have 'agents provocateurs' behind them, again to provide a pretext to increase powers for the fascist security state.
6/ So I have a big fat zero sympathy for the likes of JSO and XR useful idiots who end up convicted and sentenced for doing what were ultimately stupid, and absolutely not 'peaceful' acts.
Aileen Getty is actually a diversion for the truly bizarre and borderline sinister funders behind the organization called the CEF (Climate Emergency Fund) -- of which Aileen Getty is merely one of three founders -- based in LA. The other founders have far more dubious ties to modern-day corporate oligarchs. Hallam himself has admitted to it on record, saying that they simply need all the funding they can get their hands on regardless of who provides it.
The crazy thing to me is that both Hallam and other members of both XR and JSO deliberately seek to be arrested. Hallam once stated that their goal is to get as many people arrested as possible. So it's difficult to see all of this crying now about Hallam being sentenced to 5 years of prison as more than crocodile tears, but that doesn't mean the further implementation of the Orwellian thought police -- through actual legislation -- is absolutely reprehensible and beyond frightening. But the problem is that XR and JSO are doomsday cults that act as though they are opposed to the rising police state while they are actually ushering it in.
I've been witnessing people respond to clips, posted by JSO's own X account, of their protesters being arrested in their own homes with glee for some time now. They praise the cops and they simply view it as justice, not realizing that they are actually watching the dawn of an actual thought police. Arresting people for conspiracy to "cause a public nuisance" before it has even happened reminds me of DARPA's project to detect what they called "pre-crime" which kicked off after 9/11. While I understand the hatred that people may feel towards organizations like JSO and XR, it is leading many to become blinded to a technocratic form of policing -- which now Starmer is pushing going to push further as something like a civil war is being ignited by precisely the kinds of 'agents provocateurs' you mentioned across the UK.
The "far left" has the Hallams, the "far right" has the Robinsons. It honestly seems like this has been long in the making. Why I find XR and JSO so despicable and disgusting, possibly more so than their right-wing counterparts, is what most people tend to miss; they are a gnostic doomsday cult that cries wolf until they've obfuscated the issues they pretend to address with meaningless pseudo-religious rhetoric.
I would like to hear more about Palestine Action because I'm investigating the protest culture scene (as I've come to call it) in the UK and it seems as though arrests are somewhat normalized? But I would like to know more about any organizations that actually manage to accomplish things in a more... positive way. It almost pains me to say this but JSO apparently did manage to score a victory by getting the government to not take on any new gas and oil licenses. What did they do to celebrate? They covered the streets around Parliament in orange paint. So brave and such strong warriors they are.
But seriously, you are completely on point about this bullshit talking point that they are merely "peacefully protesting". Hallam studied civil disobedience that King's College until he started practicing it on the college itself, ironically. Civil disobedience today (as I currently understand it) is regarded by UK protesters as this weird game of walking on a legal tightrope while barely trying to cross it. XR and JSO, in particular, always look to cause disruptions to regular people and corporate entities using extreme methods at times. Hallam actually avoided a prison sentence earlier this year for his attempt to hold Heathrow airport hostage using drones to enter and disrupt its airspace.
They are borderline terrorists who engage in "mid level violence" strategies. These two organizations, as far as I can see, are an unholy fusion between something like the Frankfurt School and a gnostic mind control cult. I don't feel sympathy for them but I absolutely fear what they seem to have been designed to do; and for what is to come out of the current situation that this controlled false dichotomy has created.
The fact that you even think that 3 meaningless paragraphs -- which don't address anything specific I said -- are supposed to disprove my arguments says enough in itself.
But your blatant ignorance is both horrifying and absolutely hilarious. JSO are the only reason the "climate crisis" is reported?
I'll give you one name who has been incredibly instrumental in the founding of the modern climate agenda: the Rockefeller Foundation. JSO and XR are just lower-rank infantry for the corporate class.
But you'll probably choose to stay ignorant, dismiss anything I say, and stick to whatever you believe in without even trying to understand the history you mentioned. By all means, keep embarrassing yourself.
That is an exceptionally brilliant and insightful comment. I don't think I have much to add except I agree with pretty much every word you say. Especially when you referred to Hallam's activities (JSO and XR) as a cult. That's the one word I refrained from using in my comment above. But I've thought it for quite some time. From a certain point of view it is a natural progression for some weak-minded followers after all the fear-propaganda they must've been subjected to over the years, some of them since primary school - like 'the planet's going to burn up' and such like. Doomsday stuff, indeed. Apparently, as far as they are concerned, a mere 2 degrees temperature increase will end all life as we know it! I guess they don't teach them about the medieval warm period in school these days. Or photosynthesis, for that matter.
And you are also correct to highlight the 'who benefits' to all these 'left' and 'right' rioting and disruption and so on - and we are talking thought police as much as stormtrooper type police. Very true. If the intelligence services wanted to set things ablaze sufficiently to allow their asset, Starmer, just the pretext to usher in this Orwellian nightmare then they couldn't have planned and executed it better. All these 'counter-protests' recently are precisely what the State would have wanted.
I wasn't aware of the other (more hidden) funders of Hallam, but it doesn't surprise me. Follow the money is always a sound strategy for investigation.
But yes, the word 'cult' is exactly right. MK-Ultra appears to be well up and running in Britain now too...
I wouldn't call them a cult unless I was absolutely sure of it. I'm sure there are valid arguments against viewing them as cults but doom-saying consistently appears to be at the core of their expressed views. To name a few examples from their very own cult leader, Hallam got in trouble some time ago for extending an "invitation" to a German interview to help them "prevent another Holocaust", he frequently claims that billions of people will die, and he once said in a presentation that we need to stop the "genocide of an entire generation".
We can go on and on, also including followers of Hallam and these organizations, but those statements are all out there for everyone to see.
That's a very funny remark about photosynthesis! I feel like it'll go over the heads of all the CO2-obsessed climate agenda fanatics, which only makes it funnier. The critical levels of insanity the world has reached is on full display; people who throw the biggest tantrums about natural life often fail to grasp the basics of how plants grow and live.
You are right, I'm afraid. MK Ultra has been honed and refined to perfection. Color revolutions have been turned into commodities and I wouldn't be surprised if there is a well-established market for dark mercenary groups who specialize in fabricating them.
Various forms and levels of mind control have been exercised ("hybrid/5th generation warfare" has been discussed rather openly by many military entities, including NATO) , and they've managed to create something extraordinary on both sides of the Atlantic; which is to get people not only to embrace, but to cheer on the rising technocratic police state. It's in different ways and forms in both the US and the UK, but they seem to just showcase different aspects of exactly the same agenda.
It's at least somewhat of a relief to know there are others who aren't falling for the usual age-old Divide to Conquer tactics, and I hope more can see through the illusion of the countless false dichotomies that we increasingly find ourselves surrounded by on a global scale.
I don't think I can add anything to your perfect comment other than to repeat your last paragraph - It's at least somewhat of a relief to know there are others who aren't falling for the usual age-old Divide to Conquer tactics, and I hope more can see through the illusion of the countless false dichotomies that we increasingly find ourselves surrounded by on a global scale.
The question really is about whether there are enough of us, or not. In my pessimistic mood, I suspect not. The reason is that the 'bad guys' have spent an inordinate amount of effort in cognitive infiltration of the kind of people who can think for themselves. They have infected those people with ridiculous ideas and opinions and effectively neutralised the opposition. So, in the same way we have some useful idiots believing co2 is going to kill the world, you have others thinking 'trans people' are going to warp the minds of every child. Then you have 'if we don't stop russia/hamas/venezeula/china/north korea whoever then...'
It's absurd and what is really scary is how people actually fall for it. Back in the day, it would've been laughed at. Unfortunately, even back in the day, there were enough stupid people to vote for evil people to allow the evil people to keep themselves in power.
As I keep saying, where have all the flowers gone...
I am afraid you are correct. For the time being, certainly, there aren't enough of us -- and we will continue to be further outnumbered in the nearby future, I'm afraid.
Even though you are spot on with all of your observations that depict the grim and stark reality that we live in, it strangely fills me with hope. And after all, we are still here right now.
Things have been spiraling out of control on a global level for quite some time, but for as long as we haven't reached that totalitarian state just yet, we are still capable of doing something. Even if it's just to soften the blow for when it all comes crashing down.
While I often feels like things are quite hopeless, I think I understand now that one of the most deeply parasitic elements that's infecting almost everyone's mind is the same doomsday cult element of XR -- and Roger Hallam, in particular, offers one of the most demonstrative examples of what that perspective does to people. We must not succumb to mirroring the doomsayers.
While this is all pretty rich coming from me, because I am extremely pessimistic at this point in time, I believe that even when all is truly lost, I can still take refuge in the fact that the flowers will always be there. Even if we don't get see them again for an eternity, the flowers will always be there.
Subbed to you. Genuinely appreciate hearing your thoughts. It was my goal to publish fiction until I got sucked into the vortex of non-fiction through independent journalism, geopolitics, and historical research. You sparked my somewhat dormant appreciation for poetry again, and I expect that won't be the last time because I'm definitely going to be reading your work!
That's a lovely reply, and thanks for subbing! I hope you'll enjoy my stuff.
And I think you make a very good point indeed about not succumbing to pessimism. It is true that 'we are still capable of doing something', which is quite revealing about the limitations of their power and influence. If they didn't have such limitations, after all, they wouldn't need to spend such inordinate amounts of time and energy trying to maintain control.
And there is definitely much to feel happy about if we look for it. I live in rural France with half an acre of lovely garden, and that alone is a blessing!
The article ends with a line about "If anyone in the media had any courage, they’d be demanding that the Home Secretary explain ..." Could you not ask her? You appear to be in the media.
It’s fucking disgusting
This is a global war on the citizens of the country! The thing is this is a global operation. This is purposeful. no accident. A social engineering protocol.
The right-wing thugs provide a valuable service to capitalists and their servants in politics, just as similar groups provided a valuable service to the Nazis in the 1930s. It’s planned and approved by the wealthy and powerful. The Just Stop Oil protestors present a real threat to the nazification of the UK. Capitalists won’t stand for that.
'Tommy Robinson'... Hello? MC Yaxley Lennon, Hello? is a Zionist operator...
See Jan 6 for the playbook....
Couldn't disagree more. In the interest of fairness and critical thinking, I'll explain.
1/ The guy who got 3 years pleaded guilty, so that's 1/3rd off. If he cooperated from the start during police interviews that's another 1/3rd off. So the sentence you're actually looking at here is 9 years, not 3. Which is twice what the JSO lot got. If the JSO lot had pleaded guilty and cooperated then reduce their sentences by 2/3rds. Suddenly doesn't look so bad now, does it? They'd also serve their sentences in a low-tier prison, possibly an open one, and get out after half the time. So we're now looking at an effective sentence of somewhere between 9-11 months.
2/ Planning to cause gridlock on the M25 with a rolling roadblock is absolutely not 'peaceful'!!! It's actually one degree away from a terrorist attack. Let's think of a few consequences. First, all those engines idling actually causes more pollution, which is somewhat ironic. Second, how about missed medical screening appointments which mean the difference between curable (e.g. cancer) and terminal? So that's (multiple) manslaughter at the very least. Third, there's all those (innocent) lorry drivers who will miss their delivery times and get their pay docked. Maybe some of them have families to feed and already live on the poverty line. What if they are delivering vital necessities - again, medicines, for example. Or there's an ambulance with a donor organ? And we haven't even started on the economic damage which would run into the billions and probably send a variety of small British businesses bankrupt. So that's more job losses and more poverty. Then there's the obvious road rage incidents.
3/ I very much doubt that 'Roger Hallam' will be serving any jail time at all, possibly on account of something called the 'covert human intelligence sources' act. The other four, maybe, I don't know. But JSO, funded as it is (like XR) by an American billionairess (Eileen Getty I believe), are an excellent honeypot, and oh look, they've just provided the perfect pretext for a fascist home secretary to increase the powers of the security state! Has anyone not heard of the concept of an agent provocateur? Who benefits?
4/ I'm not even going to get started on the whole neoliberal-instigated pseudoscience of 'global warming'. But even if you did want to believe it, and you wanted to protest, then you should be choosing your targets more intelligently and specifically. How about all the 'lobbyists' for a start? How about a massive poster campaign, if it's about raising awareness? Compare to, say, Palestine Action, who not only choose their targets (Elbit) but actually achieve something in the process. Furthermore, there's no need to 'raise awareness' because 'everyone' can't fail to be aware of the 'climate crisis' seeing as it's shoved down everyone's throats incessantly by mainstream media propaganda.
5/ I would likewise imagine all these current riots have 'agents provocateurs' behind them, again to provide a pretext to increase powers for the fascist security state.
6/ So I have a big fat zero sympathy for the likes of JSO and XR useful idiots who end up convicted and sentenced for doing what were ultimately stupid, and absolutely not 'peaceful' acts.
Aileen Getty is actually a diversion for the truly bizarre and borderline sinister funders behind the organization called the CEF (Climate Emergency Fund) -- of which Aileen Getty is merely one of three founders -- based in LA. The other founders have far more dubious ties to modern-day corporate oligarchs. Hallam himself has admitted to it on record, saying that they simply need all the funding they can get their hands on regardless of who provides it.
The crazy thing to me is that both Hallam and other members of both XR and JSO deliberately seek to be arrested. Hallam once stated that their goal is to get as many people arrested as possible. So it's difficult to see all of this crying now about Hallam being sentenced to 5 years of prison as more than crocodile tears, but that doesn't mean the further implementation of the Orwellian thought police -- through actual legislation -- is absolutely reprehensible and beyond frightening. But the problem is that XR and JSO are doomsday cults that act as though they are opposed to the rising police state while they are actually ushering it in.
I've been witnessing people respond to clips, posted by JSO's own X account, of their protesters being arrested in their own homes with glee for some time now. They praise the cops and they simply view it as justice, not realizing that they are actually watching the dawn of an actual thought police. Arresting people for conspiracy to "cause a public nuisance" before it has even happened reminds me of DARPA's project to detect what they called "pre-crime" which kicked off after 9/11. While I understand the hatred that people may feel towards organizations like JSO and XR, it is leading many to become blinded to a technocratic form of policing -- which now Starmer is pushing going to push further as something like a civil war is being ignited by precisely the kinds of 'agents provocateurs' you mentioned across the UK.
The "far left" has the Hallams, the "far right" has the Robinsons. It honestly seems like this has been long in the making. Why I find XR and JSO so despicable and disgusting, possibly more so than their right-wing counterparts, is what most people tend to miss; they are a gnostic doomsday cult that cries wolf until they've obfuscated the issues they pretend to address with meaningless pseudo-religious rhetoric.
I would like to hear more about Palestine Action because I'm investigating the protest culture scene (as I've come to call it) in the UK and it seems as though arrests are somewhat normalized? But I would like to know more about any organizations that actually manage to accomplish things in a more... positive way. It almost pains me to say this but JSO apparently did manage to score a victory by getting the government to not take on any new gas and oil licenses. What did they do to celebrate? They covered the streets around Parliament in orange paint. So brave and such strong warriors they are.
But seriously, you are completely on point about this bullshit talking point that they are merely "peacefully protesting". Hallam studied civil disobedience that King's College until he started practicing it on the college itself, ironically. Civil disobedience today (as I currently understand it) is regarded by UK protesters as this weird game of walking on a legal tightrope while barely trying to cross it. XR and JSO, in particular, always look to cause disruptions to regular people and corporate entities using extreme methods at times. Hallam actually avoided a prison sentence earlier this year for his attempt to hold Heathrow airport hostage using drones to enter and disrupt its airspace.
They are borderline terrorists who engage in "mid level violence" strategies. These two organizations, as far as I can see, are an unholy fusion between something like the Frankfurt School and a gnostic mind control cult. I don't feel sympathy for them but I absolutely fear what they seem to have been designed to do; and for what is to come out of the current situation that this controlled false dichotomy has created.
The fact that you even think that 3 meaningless paragraphs -- which don't address anything specific I said -- are supposed to disprove my arguments says enough in itself.
But your blatant ignorance is both horrifying and absolutely hilarious. JSO are the only reason the "climate crisis" is reported?
I'll give you one name who has been incredibly instrumental in the founding of the modern climate agenda: the Rockefeller Foundation. JSO and XR are just lower-rank infantry for the corporate class.
But you'll probably choose to stay ignorant, dismiss anything I say, and stick to whatever you believe in without even trying to understand the history you mentioned. By all means, keep embarrassing yourself.
That is an exceptionally brilliant and insightful comment. I don't think I have much to add except I agree with pretty much every word you say. Especially when you referred to Hallam's activities (JSO and XR) as a cult. That's the one word I refrained from using in my comment above. But I've thought it for quite some time. From a certain point of view it is a natural progression for some weak-minded followers after all the fear-propaganda they must've been subjected to over the years, some of them since primary school - like 'the planet's going to burn up' and such like. Doomsday stuff, indeed. Apparently, as far as they are concerned, a mere 2 degrees temperature increase will end all life as we know it! I guess they don't teach them about the medieval warm period in school these days. Or photosynthesis, for that matter.
And you are also correct to highlight the 'who benefits' to all these 'left' and 'right' rioting and disruption and so on - and we are talking thought police as much as stormtrooper type police. Very true. If the intelligence services wanted to set things ablaze sufficiently to allow their asset, Starmer, just the pretext to usher in this Orwellian nightmare then they couldn't have planned and executed it better. All these 'counter-protests' recently are precisely what the State would have wanted.
I wasn't aware of the other (more hidden) funders of Hallam, but it doesn't surprise me. Follow the money is always a sound strategy for investigation.
But yes, the word 'cult' is exactly right. MK-Ultra appears to be well up and running in Britain now too...
I wouldn't call them a cult unless I was absolutely sure of it. I'm sure there are valid arguments against viewing them as cults but doom-saying consistently appears to be at the core of their expressed views. To name a few examples from their very own cult leader, Hallam got in trouble some time ago for extending an "invitation" to a German interview to help them "prevent another Holocaust", he frequently claims that billions of people will die, and he once said in a presentation that we need to stop the "genocide of an entire generation".
We can go on and on, also including followers of Hallam and these organizations, but those statements are all out there for everyone to see.
That's a very funny remark about photosynthesis! I feel like it'll go over the heads of all the CO2-obsessed climate agenda fanatics, which only makes it funnier. The critical levels of insanity the world has reached is on full display; people who throw the biggest tantrums about natural life often fail to grasp the basics of how plants grow and live.
You are right, I'm afraid. MK Ultra has been honed and refined to perfection. Color revolutions have been turned into commodities and I wouldn't be surprised if there is a well-established market for dark mercenary groups who specialize in fabricating them.
Various forms and levels of mind control have been exercised ("hybrid/5th generation warfare" has been discussed rather openly by many military entities, including NATO) , and they've managed to create something extraordinary on both sides of the Atlantic; which is to get people not only to embrace, but to cheer on the rising technocratic police state. It's in different ways and forms in both the US and the UK, but they seem to just showcase different aspects of exactly the same agenda.
It's at least somewhat of a relief to know there are others who aren't falling for the usual age-old Divide to Conquer tactics, and I hope more can see through the illusion of the countless false dichotomies that we increasingly find ourselves surrounded by on a global scale.
I don't think I can add anything to your perfect comment other than to repeat your last paragraph - It's at least somewhat of a relief to know there are others who aren't falling for the usual age-old Divide to Conquer tactics, and I hope more can see through the illusion of the countless false dichotomies that we increasingly find ourselves surrounded by on a global scale.
The question really is about whether there are enough of us, or not. In my pessimistic mood, I suspect not. The reason is that the 'bad guys' have spent an inordinate amount of effort in cognitive infiltration of the kind of people who can think for themselves. They have infected those people with ridiculous ideas and opinions and effectively neutralised the opposition. So, in the same way we have some useful idiots believing co2 is going to kill the world, you have others thinking 'trans people' are going to warp the minds of every child. Then you have 'if we don't stop russia/hamas/venezeula/china/north korea whoever then...'
It's absurd and what is really scary is how people actually fall for it. Back in the day, it would've been laughed at. Unfortunately, even back in the day, there were enough stupid people to vote for evil people to allow the evil people to keep themselves in power.
As I keep saying, where have all the flowers gone...
I am afraid you are correct. For the time being, certainly, there aren't enough of us -- and we will continue to be further outnumbered in the nearby future, I'm afraid.
Even though you are spot on with all of your observations that depict the grim and stark reality that we live in, it strangely fills me with hope. And after all, we are still here right now.
Things have been spiraling out of control on a global level for quite some time, but for as long as we haven't reached that totalitarian state just yet, we are still capable of doing something. Even if it's just to soften the blow for when it all comes crashing down.
While I often feels like things are quite hopeless, I think I understand now that one of the most deeply parasitic elements that's infecting almost everyone's mind is the same doomsday cult element of XR -- and Roger Hallam, in particular, offers one of the most demonstrative examples of what that perspective does to people. We must not succumb to mirroring the doomsayers.
While this is all pretty rich coming from me, because I am extremely pessimistic at this point in time, I believe that even when all is truly lost, I can still take refuge in the fact that the flowers will always be there. Even if we don't get see them again for an eternity, the flowers will always be there.
Subbed to you. Genuinely appreciate hearing your thoughts. It was my goal to publish fiction until I got sucked into the vortex of non-fiction through independent journalism, geopolitics, and historical research. You sparked my somewhat dormant appreciation for poetry again, and I expect that won't be the last time because I'm definitely going to be reading your work!
That's a lovely reply, and thanks for subbing! I hope you'll enjoy my stuff.
And I think you make a very good point indeed about not succumbing to pessimism. It is true that 'we are still capable of doing something', which is quite revealing about the limitations of their power and influence. If they didn't have such limitations, after all, they wouldn't need to spend such inordinate amounts of time and energy trying to maintain control.
And there is definitely much to feel happy about if we look for it. I live in rural France with half an acre of lovely garden, and that alone is a blessing!
The article ends with a line about "If anyone in the media had any courage, they’d be demanding that the Home Secretary explain ..." Could you not ask her? You appear to be in the media.
FELICES Y GRACIAS ANOTHER ANGRY VOICE